Interview

Asif Ali Zardari in conversation with Karan Thapar.

Karan Thapar: Are you confident that Nawaz Sharif will support your government for the full five years, or do you suspect that he might be tempted to pull the rug after a year or 18 months?

Asif Ali Zardari: I think by and large it depends on the larger party. We have got the larger mandate; we have to show humility; we have to take him into our heart and build confidence.

 

Yours is absolutely the right attitude, but the problem is that Nawaz Sharif has already announced that he would welcome back into the PML(N) all those who are today in the PML(Q). If that were to happen suddenly his numbers would swell beyond yours and he would become the larger party.

I think the problems faced by Pakistan today are beyond the numbers game, beyond immediate politics. So I think the more we get down to business and more we get into governance we will realise that. When that dawns on everybody, we will all stand in line and start delivering.

 

Except Nawaz Sharif has already said that his party won’t actually be in the Cabinet you form and many people suspect that he is keeping open the option of withdrawing support without any cost to himself?

Then we shall take a position when we are faced with it. Why should I apprehend – why should I go into the fear factor. I shouldn’t – I should stand in the positive factor and take it from there.

 

Let us concentrate on some of the important differences between the two of you. To begin with Nawaz Sharif has said he wants immediate impeachment of President Pervez Musharraf.

You have said to the ‘Wall Street Journal’ that you don’t have the numbers. Makhdoom Amin Fahim (PPP leader) has said this wouldn’t be wise and that it would rock the boat, but Nawaz isn’t satisfied with those answers. You have got a problem there, haven’t you?

I don’t think it’s a problem. I think it is a perception. He realises and we realise that we have to mature as a democracy and the parliament is the replacement to the system. There is a system of governance today; the world is comfortable with it. We have to gain the world’s confidence, we have to gain the people’s confidence, we have to gain the establishment’s confidence.

We can run the show and the parliament can shoulder the difficulties, the problems and world issues. Once we have done that I don’t think there will be any other issues.

 

You are absolutely right when you say that you have to gain people’s confidence and prove to them that you can run the government. The problem is that Nawaz Sharif, in an interview, said to me that he is considering taking Musharraf to court for deposing an elected Prime Minister and abrogating the Constitution. That would lose the confidence of the military establishment from day one.

Like I said, before he goes there he will have to consult his friends.

 

Are you confident he will consult you?

I think he should and he will. Why would I expect anything less of him? He is my ally, we fought the elections nearly together and I intend to take him with me on every issue that is facing Pakistan.

 

Except that he wants vengeance for being thrown out power by Musharraf. He has a personal animus, which in a sense you don’t have, against Musharraf.

I think if there is anybody aggrieved in this whole situation it is the PPP.

 

So if you can be restrained so should he?

You said it, I didn’t.

 

A second problem is his stand on the restoration of the judiciary. Sharif has said he wants the new government on day one to restore the judiciary. Is it possible; is it acceptable?

I look at it in a larger context. I am the person against whom the law has been applied more. How do you know law? Either you read law or you experience law. I have experienced law, and the kind of law which they accept is tailor-made. So in all these scenarios I think the nation has grown up – we have all travelled a great deal. Let us sit down and do something permanent rather than look for immediate excuses.

 

Except that you are prepared to be patient and to take it step by step, but Nawaz Sharif is impatient. When he says that he is demanding restoration on day one, he is putting a test – almost a challenge – in front of his ally.

No, we can always agree upon that position – it is just a methodology. We are not in the business of not taking public opinion with us. We are susceptible to public opinion. The public opinion today says the judiciary must be restored. So I meet them, speak to them and find a way out of an issue.

 

What about something else – any government that you form today in Islamabad, unless you take the support of the PML(Q) – which you said you won’t – is critically dependent on the PML(N). But in Lahore, Nawaz Sharif has the numbers to form the government without you.

In other words, you are dependent on him but he doesn’t need you. Doesn’t that give him an advantage that he could use to keep your government uncertain, weak and unstable?

Maybe he can use it to keep me in check. I do want to be kept in check.

 

You are happy for Nawaz to keep you in check?

I am very happy for everybody, including the media, the judges, Nawaz, to keep me in check. Fine, so let’s work from there.

 

Do you think you need to be kept in check?

About power, Caesar always said, ‘Behold, you are a man.’

 

You mean power corrupts?

No, it doesn’t corrupt but it makes you lack direction sometimes.

 

And this is why you want Nawaz Sharif to keep you in check?

No, I want everybody to be observant so that everyone shares responsibility. If something is happening and I by default or by silence let it happen, I think I am as much responsible as the person who is doing it.

 

And this is where Nawaz Sharif is keeping you in check – keeping a certain uncertainty and keeping a certain apprehensiveness is a good thing?

I think challenges are always good. They keep everybody on their position. People are seeing too much into the fact – he is my ally…the press is watching, public, opinion is watching.

 

You have enunciated something that will take most people completely by surprise. Never before have politicians said that they would like an ally to keep them in check. You have said the unusual – many will be very pleased to hear this. When your new government is formed, what will your role be?

I will take a leaf out of your politics and do something like talking to the allied parties, making democracy come alive.

 

You mean you are going to be the Sonia Gandhi of Pakistan?

She is too great – for me to be Sonia.

 

But that is the sort of role you see for yourself – above the government, liaising with the parties and ensuring the government follows the directions?

I won’t put it that way. I don’t want to be above the government. I want to be with the government, supporting the government. Mind you, we had a giant of the 21st century with us – she is still with us spiritually, she is with us in her political acumen, but she is not with us today. So I have to go back to the basics and re-develop the party.

 

So you are going to re-develop the party, make sure that it overcomes its faults and at the same time you are going to be a liaison with the government and other political parties?

Something to that effect.

 

Which is in a sense the Sonia Gandhi role?

Is it? You tell me?

 

Who will be your Manmohan Singh?

The search is on.

 

When Benazir Bhutto, your late wife, was assassinated it was announced that Makhdoom Amin Fahim would be the prime ministerial candidate? Why is the search still on?

Makhdoom Amin Fahim is a very senior person in our party and we respect him tremendously. But at that time the challenge was of getting a two-third majority. And we in the party thought that we were going to make it. But somehow, something happened – something which we haven’t been able to put a finger on. I have called it selective rigging.

 

So now you need a different person perhaps?

No, it’s not that we need a different person. In the party we are rethinking the position. Fahim is of course the first runner. We are just seeing how we are going to get out of this absolute challenge that we have been faced with – allies being there to check us, judges’ issue coming over.

 

Is it causing a rift in your party? Is it causing differences, as the press in Pakistan suggest?

We haven’t really even come to the position when we have started to select…

 

So the choice of Prime Minister is still some days away?

A few days away.

 

In other words, it is wide open at the moment.

In other words, it could be.

 

Let us turn to the sort of relationship your government would have with India. For the last four years under Pervez Musharraf and Manmohan Singh, the two countries believe they have had the best relationship ever. How can you ensure that momentum continues?

I think you may probably find the best understanding ever. The kind of relationship I look at, that Pakistan People’s Party wants, hasn’t really happened.

 

You mean you are determined to take it to a yet higher stage.

I want to take it to a stage of such confidence building that the fear factor diminishes from both sides.

 

How will you do this?

People to people contact should be improved and then trade – interdependence of trade. If Indian energy, Indian industry depends on Pakistan energy and I depend on Indian market for my product to be sold, then we are both interdependent financially, integrated industry-wise. That is people to people contact.

 

So you want to link the two countries together, first, at the level of trade and create interdependency.

Yes, the idea is India needs to be a superpower – economic superpower. It cannot do so without energy. The energy corridors are with me.

 

And you will guarantee India security of energy if they were to develop the pipeline idea, so that a pipeline goes from Iran via Pakistan to India.

By the way, that pipeline is a PPP-conceived idea.

 

And you are committed to it?

We are committed to it. But we have gas otherwise and we have the capacity to build power plants on our coal before India can.

 

So you are determined to break those trade barriers and the mindset that actually discourages people to trade with each other.

That is the idea.

 

One of the problems you face is that many people in India believe that the Kashmir issue can best be sorted out when there is army rule in Islamabad. How do you convince them to the contrary?

Well, we have had army rule for eight years. Have they solved it? I don’t need to convince anyone.

 

One of the problems that you face is that in July 2006 the PPP and PML(N) signed a charter of democracy committing themselves to sorting out Kashmir in line with the UN resolutions.

Since 2004 Musharraf has moved away from that position and as a result a whole new attitude and approach to Kashmir has started between the two countries. Are you not winding the clock back?

No, I am not winding or de-winding clocks. I am not becoming a hostage to that issue... We feel for Kashmir, PPP has always felt for Kashmir. We have a strong Kashmir policy and we always had one. But having said that we don’t want to be hostage to that situation. That is a situation we can agree to disagree [on]. Countries do, we have positions, you have positions. We can agree to disagree on everything.

 

So the UN resolution needn’t be a breaking point. You can agree to disagree on it?

We can agree to disagree on [the UN resolution]. We can wait. We can be patient till everybody grows up further. Maybe the coming generation grows up even further and then interact as human beings and come to a position of love.

 

You have said something that I think is very important. You are saying we can agree to disagree, we can be patient, we can wait till people grow up.

Are you suggesting that it’s bit like India and China where they have a border dispute. India and Pakistan can also agree: we have a dispute, we disagree over it but let’s put it aside for a while and let the rest of our relationship develop?

Exactly.

 

So that when the relationship improves then we can come back and with the benefit of an improved relationship tackle this problem.

Tackle the bottom problem. Today there are fixed notions – when dependency increases, we are matured enough, we got trust between us then nobody has fixed issues.

 

In other words, leave the border issue for a wiser generation and a better time. Let us get on with our relationship, let us become friends and then we will tackle our problems.

As it is going to be a no-border world in the end.

 

Do you think you will find the support of your allies right across the Pakistani political establishment for this very novel attitude, very brave attitude to Kashmir?

I think the economic dependency that I’m talking about, nobody has really made the Pakistanis aware what position they are [in] and what they can gain.

 

And when they realise they can gain from trade with India, the resistance will disappear?

When they realise that they can change, the world will change. Economically, it’s a thousand per cent leap we’ll get into and the benefit of the thousand per cent leap is going to [have an] effect across the board.

 

You are talking about a complete change in the manner in which India and Pakistan relate to each other and therefore a change in the relationship itself.

To set the ball rolling, do you think it would be a good idea for the new Prime Minister of Pakistan, whoever she or he may be, to pay an early visit [to India] to get to know Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi and perhaps to know politicians of other parties as well so that a personal initiative is started as early as possible to bring about the change you want?

I think we should go further than that. Just not visiting and meeting – let’s hit the road running, let’s meet with concrete steps, let’s talk about SAARC, let’s talk modern technology. What is the worry? The worry is that we might send some troops here, you might send some troops there – something like that. Let’s take modern technology and use it as practical.

 

So if Manmohan Singh is hearing this interview and says I think I am going to invite the new Prime Minister to Delhi quickly to get to know him, you think the new Prime Minister of Pakistan is likely to accept?

I think the new Prime Minister of Pakistan will not only visit India, he will visit India with the political parties’ leaders following him. When he gets down, he’ll be first [with] me, Nawaz Sharif, Asfandyar Wali Khan [of ANP], hopefully Maulana Fazlur Rehman [of MMA], hopefully Altaf [Hussain]’s party – we should all walk behind him, greeting India.

 

So this in fact would be the new Pakistan led by the new Prime Minister but all the political leaders with him to tell the Indians we are united in putting our hand forward in friendship, shake hands with us and let us move together.

Exactly.

 

You said something revolutionary. I should say that it will attract a lot of attention in India. Are you worried you could face a backlash in your country?

That is what leadership is all about, that’s what popularity is all about – the fact that I do something with the will of the people is my plus not my minus.